Thread:Saris Khan/@comment-24384232-20141211031559/@comment-1493741-20141212125147

''Sure in canon, we have Byakuya. But we've also got Hachigen who as you probably recall fought and defeated Barragan with nothing but Kido, almost all of his spells were cast silently and on the spot. He even cast several silent spells in immediate succession. Now, Hachigen stated that his Kido was not meant for combat, and he was right, even if he managed to do a fine job using it for combat regardless. My characters are largely specialized in offensive Kido, and do the same with Hado that he did with Bakudo. Any improvements beyond that point haven't really been that far from canon. Not really much further than your sword styles, we already know the degree of power that Kido has, as we know, it can actually halt time. That's IMMENSE.''

I'm pretty sure Hachigen is also the only canonical person to do so, but he's a character largely shaped by Kidou, its what makes him unique, its his speciality, he was the Lieutenant (Or whatever it was called) of the Kidou Corps and even then the fight was never one-sided in his favour, Hachigen won, yes, but Kidou did not make him anything close to unbeatable. This should be said of all parts of the Zanksensoki.

Just because one can stop time itself does not mean that feat is easy. IIRC the spell is forbidden and its use is an automatic jail sentence, that implies it has some serious consequence beyond possibly harming its user; its use is expressly forbidden for a reason. To bring back the RPG talk earlier, most games do have a sense of balance for this kind of thing. A Mage may be your most versatile unit, yes, but they are also typically the most fragile. They also typically have resource systems in place so that all those super powerful spells cannot be used in succession or can only be used a very scant number of times for an extended period. Super powerful spells should be immensely exhausting so that you can't use them again and again without consequences and that's where Zanjutsu and Hakuda should shine, they are both physically intensive where-as Kidou is spiritually intensive, it consumes Reiryoku which also effects stamina while the former only consumes stamina which will regenerate on its own with little downtime in comparison.

For example Ichigo's Reiryoku did not recover during his bouts in Hueco Mundo in the White Invasion it went down and down and down until he was half-naked, only outside help from Unohana got him back in tip-top shape, so there's a flaw to work with, Kidou is largely a one-way street in its resource management. Its not coming back to you anytime soon, so use it wisely. People are often decried for using their super powerful abilities right off the bat, both because it quickly becomes a crutch and in a practical sense, they would be utterly ruined should it fail.

Now then-

I believe the original point of this discussion was supposed to be about how to advance Zanjutsu and make it better in roleplaying, as opposed to a circlejerk on why Kidou isn't the best kid in town. In which case I believe both Sei and Njalm provided a good base from which to work with: the spiritual aspects of Zanjutsu.

Martial arts are typically far more than just beating the shit out of a guy, they delve into philosophy, codes of conduct and all that. Zanjutsu does too, with Jinzen and communicating with ones Zanpakutou. I might be dropping the ball here, but I do believe Seireitou can manipulate Kidou as an expression of his Hakuda, due to his sheer skill in the art. Zanjutsu could do similar without using Kidou. One could flow Reiryoku, their will, or whatever you want through the blade in order to achieve an effect, maybe that effect is directly constructed by the spirit living inside the blade but mechanics can wait till later. Generally the idea would be to make it use both physical stamina and Reiryoku to achieve an end.

The point is, thinking of Zanjutsu as regular swordsmanship in a world where there's fucking magic and a ten foot bipedal wolf is silly. So work out a means of bestowing these things effects. A Naruto filler character had a swordsman who could cast illusions with the motions of his sword (I believe, not entirely up to date on Naruto). Janemba from Dragon Ball had a sword that could cut through dimensions and Assassin from Fate/stay night could cut in three places at the exact same time because he tried so much that reality up and gave up. I have a character with a fighting style based around that, his sword aims in one direction but the actual physical attack itself emerges from another. Yes a Kidou master may summon an omni-directional assault of Shakkaho, but what if the Zanjutsu practitioner could cleave his sword forward and out emerges a seemingly invisible blade that cuts through all of those spells? Shakkahou detonates on impact, so they've all harmlessly exploded in the air. The Kidou master has expended the energy for one Shakkahou spell several times over, the Zanjutsu master has performed one move, at a fraction of the cost.

Kidou master erects a barrier to deflect an oncoming attack, but psyche the attack had never been real to begin with, watching the swaying movements of the swordsman had cast a subtle illusion, and now the Kidou master has a sword through his back. We should not make Kidou the only thing that can use fantastical effects, for all intents and purposes Zanpakutou are Kidou spells in the form of the Caster gun from Outlaw Star.

Mind you, I work on the idea that what makes Kidou unique is the "Words are Power" aspect and removing it for silent casting should always be a bad thing as far as resource management goes (Tit for tat; it gives you a strategic boost as the enemy cannot anticipate or prevent its arrival but in exchange, you weaken the spell, and may empower it with your own energy to retain its full power, but the initial cost never goes down, so it costs more to use less).